Thermotron Manager training- Liar -cheat -Thief - MORTAL Sin

PJM · Jan 17, '13, 8:50 am

Quote:

=GAHere;10250569]The OP writes:
These are Catholics who are catechized well enough to know it is a mortal sin they are committing, but not catechized enough to know this isn't how it's supposed to work.

Therein lies the problem. They 'know' (i.e. learned) about mortal sin, but they don't 'know' that what they have chosen to do constitutes one of "those" mortal sins. That's why it's so difficult to engage in a conversation with them about it.

For one thing, they probably aren't asking us if what they are doing is acceptable by church standards. In their minds they already know the answer (even though we know it's wrong). To initiate a conversation suggesting to them they are committing a mortal sin results in a very defensive or dismissive posture on their part.

I really like the question the OP raised because it is very difficult to handle.

IMO

Some are "over-thinking" this issue.

While their may be rare times when one does hold serious doubts about this or that being a MORTAL sin; the very fact that it is a concernitself, imposed a MOTRAL SIN obligation to find out. Talk to a priest. That is just good old common sense.

More often than not I SUSPECT; the question is more of one trying to convience themselves that its NOT a MS; than actually and honestly knowing it is or is not?

Then their is the unavoidable issue of HOW God will; because He must judge us.

Not on what we know

Not on what we hope

Not on what we prefer

NO! God's Judgment will on what He God MAKES POSSIBLE for us to know.

ANY and all catholics have the opportunity and the ability to find out; and therefore th grave moral obligation to do so. Prentending one doesn't will not go well with God.

God Bles,
pat/PJM

ericboutin · #17 Jan 17, '13, 11:09 am

IMO Pat, LOL
You may be oversimplifying the issue.

The OP is talking (I believe) of when people won't use common sense because they are getting defensive right from the get-go. I too have run across folks like this and it is very difficult and I really haven't found a good way to approach it effectively either. A fellow Catholic that I work with is exactly like this....he is doing the whole living together/pre-marital thing and insists on getting married in the Catholic church (which is good) but when I questioned him on how he squares that with what the Church teaches....well things go south in a hurry. You get "it's 2013, that is old thinking etc etc".
Anyway like was said earlier this is a really an interesting question and I too would love to hear some success stories and what your approach was. Not meaning to pick on you Pat, I do absolutely agree with the rest of your post; I'm just trying to figure out how to get to where I can articulate exactly what you wrote when they are so defensive.

PJM · #18 Jan 17, '13, 12:13 pm

Quote:

=ericboutin;10252612]IMO Pat, LOL
You may be oversimplifying the issue.

The OP is talking (I believe) of when people won't use common sense because they are getting defensive right from the get-go. I too have run across folks like this and it is very difficult and I really haven't found a good way to approach it effectively either. A fellow Catholic that I work with is exactly like this....he is doing the whole living together/pre-marital thing and insists on getting married in the Catholic church (which is good) but when I questioned him on how he squares that with what the Church teaches....well things go south in a hurry. You get "it's 2013, that is old thinking etc etc".
Anyway like was said earlier this is a really an interesting question and I too would love to hear some success stories and what your approach was. Not meaning to pick on you Pat, I do absolutely agree with the rest of your post; I'm just trying to figure out how to get to where I can articulate exactly what you wrote when they are so defensive.

Hmmmmmm

Sometimes [always with eye contact and a BIG smile] try a Direct approach.

Do you believe it God?

yes I do

How many God's do you beieve in?

One of course [or some such reply]

Then have you consdiered that because there is only One God; that He can have ONLY ONE set of faith beliefs? God can't contradict Himself.

Hmmmmmmm

Jesus gave the "key's to the Kingdom of heaven to ONLY Peter [Matt. 16:18-19] and through Him our Catholic Church. what the Church teaches is WHAT Jesus Himself taught and Commands

Beyond doing this [or someting similar] all we can do is pray for them and be open for questions.

God Bless,
Pat/PJM

ericboutin · #19 Jan 17, '13, 1:33 pm

And now if I can go ahead and simplify things...lol...that may be exactly what we need to do, just simply pray. You are right. You can't beat a beat a dead horse; I think at least for me it's frustrating with the Pelosi/Biden Catholics out there, what I like to call the psuedo-Catholics I just want to shake them! Lol

. Anyway you are probably right, plant the seed and stop trying to do the Holy Spirits job! Lol

Lady Love · #20 Jan 19, '13, 11:27 am

Never discourage anyone who has confidence in God's mercy!

You may have to approach these people a different way. It may be as simple as this:

God obviously loves you enough to forgive you of your mortal sins but do you love God and yourself enough to stop committing them? God loves you enough to forgive you of these sins but do you love Him enough to stop subjecting Him to such horrible crimes? To make it to heaven the love MUST be reciprocated.

GAHere · #21 Jan 26, '13, 7:22 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by yellow8yellowM

In the OP I meant to make the assumption that the person knows it is a grave sin and does it anyway.

But that's a big assumption. How do you know the person 'knows' it is a grave sin and chooses to do it anyway?

Certainly my relatives were taught that certain choices and actions are considered mortal sins by the church, so they 'know' on an intellectual level of the teaching. It seems more likely so assume they never truly grasped the knowledge they were given and thus dismiss it as possibly not true. That is what enables them to side with the other 'knowledge' of God's grace that the baptists teach.

When I have been able to broach the subject with my family members it is obvious that once they learned about ways other churches explained God's relationship to man it was a matter of choosing which 'truth' to accept. They chose the other and now they don't recognize certain actions as being mortal sins. It's not so much that they have chosen to commit a mortal sin as they have chosen to believe the sins we were taught were mortal really are. One of my siblings chose to no longer consider himself Catholic. I pray for him most.

My other still considers herself fully Catholic but no longer follows the structure of being Catholic. She doesn't believe God will condemn her for not attending mass every Sunday, she just doesn't see him as being that petty. She believes God forgives her sins when she confesses them to him directly, not through a mediator. Again, she can't fathom a God so merciful that he'd die for us, yet petty enough to condemn us to hell for not accepting his teaching on confessing to a mediator, or fasting on Fridays, etc. I have not been able to find a way to reason with her on those points, not that there are many opportunities to do so, we live states apart from each other. I pray for her a lot because the spirit has to work through her interactions with others since she doesn't bring herself to opportunities to receive actual grace through sacraments. Unfortunately she surrounds herself with non-active Catholics like herself so she becomes more and more comfortable in that view of faith.

Then there are the Catholics who still attend church regularly, participate in the sacraments, but have been heavily influenced by their non-Catholic friends' view of God's mercy. I think they are much like my sister, but they continue to go through the motions of Catholic rituals and obligations as insurance rather than out of absolute belief in them. I pray for them because at least they still receive the Eucharist. The grace they receive may be minuscule due to their errant way of believing, but at least they receive him and in that, I have hope it will increase their faith and reveal his Truth.

fred conty · #22 Jan 30, '13, 1:31 pm

Sounds as tho many here have strays in the family, and we all do. And it is only natural that all of us fear for their safety.

It seems like a bit of indifference to the faith, or a weakness or some loss of faith. It's the attitude that they were brought here with their consent, so now this frees them from any real effort on their part. They feel they can do pretty much what they want to do as long as it doesn't hurt someone else.

They have the idea that religion is just a set of rules and not a life, so it isn't that important except to argue about. They don't see it as a life they share with Jesus, one that can be filled with love and understanding. This lack of spiritual growth and meaning is at the bottom of it. But now their lives are busy and they aren't about to take the time and make the effort to do that.

What I have seen here on CAF is that people do mature, and come to recognize that there are some things more important than just this world and life. Whey they reach that point, then some serious thoughts begin to open up to them.

So they need two things. One, knowledge which they are not motivated for. Two, light which comes from grace opening up their minds to more important things.

I think all we can do is number two. Pray for the light to open them up to wanting the truth.

There is one other alternative method if you can get them to do it. That is the green scapular of Mary. It is Mary's gift to us to help us and here is how.

.. Conversion of those who do not have the faith
.. Reconciliation to the Church for those who have lost/strayed from the faith
.. Assurance of a happy death
.. Strengthening of the faith for those already in the Church
.. Protection from Satan for those who wear or promote the scapular

Are'nt those benefits what you want? Maybe all of them?

However for it to work, Mary did ask a favour of you.

Give it to the person for whom you pray.
The green scapular should be blessed.
Wear it around the neck, or carry it on you and them, in your wallet, purse, pocket.
Say this prayer at least twice every day, once for yourself, and once for them:
"Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death."
Have great trust in her. Place yourself in her care and tell her that you know your problem is taken care of because she promised on her word. And thank her every day.

She didn't say when, only that she would do it for you.

A free green scapular may be obtained by googling "geen scapular".

http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...=544742&page=3

My father, a fallen-away Catholic, passed away several years ago. When he first became ill and was hospitalized, one of the Vincentian priest pinned a Green Scapular to his pillow. I know my mother was especially worried about his salvation, as he had not awakened following emergency surgery. He did awaken many days later, and that same Vincentian asked if he wished to receive the sacraments. He was on a ventilator, so he could not speak, but he could indicate "yes" or "no", so the priest simply asked if he was sorry for any and all sins he committed, then he was given Extreme Unction. This was 2 years to the day of my auto accident, August 3rd. He died 2 days later, on the Feast of Our Lady of the Snows on August 5th. There is a promise attached to the Green Scapular that Our Lady will obtain the conversion of those who have fallen away from the True Faith. I'm convinced she did so with my father, the day of his death was clearly Providential.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=620449
(From an atheist)
How did you come to embrace Catholicism?
Strangely enough, it was the Blessed Virgin Mary. That friend of mine had sneakily
snuck in a scapular under my mattress. I didn't know until about 1 year into my
conversion. I imagine that she had something to do with it. I think it was the
green scapular.

dontknowitall · #23 Mar 5, '13, 2:31 pm

if lying or stealing is a mortal sin or libleing or slandering a persons character

is a mortal sin--

then i know a lot of catholics and protestants that should figure it out--

but i am told that it's just Politics

Glacies · #24 Mar 7, '13, 12:05 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by yellow8yellowM

How might you approach this?

One may refer to the teaching of the 2nd Council of Lyons (1274) and the Council of Florence (1438-1445) which declare the souls departed in mortal or original sin descend to Hell.

The 2nd Council of Lyons (D 464):

Quote:

The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.

The Council of Florence (D 693):

Quote:

Moreover, the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds

Apologista · #25 Mar 8, '13, 2:54 pm

When people start thinking they can tell whether God is being "petty" on a matter, I just shake my head in disbelief and wonder if they've ever reflected on the Scriptures that say that His ways are not our ways and vice versa.

Like when Peter was telling Jesus He wouldn't have to suffer and die, remember what Jesus said - "Get thee behind me, Satan!"

123Strontium · #26 Mar 8, '13, 4:21 pm

In Protestantism, there's a doctrine where they believe sacramental grace cannot be lost, so long as they have faith. This description of yours sounds very like what you describe. Whereas in Catholicism, sacramental grace can be lost by repeated sin, because sin separates us from God. May be they don't know this? It's hard to establish whether every catholic knows the same degree of knowledge about moral teaching.

I've never really been in any frank conversations with fellow catholics on such personal matters, mortal sin usually is a matter between person and confessor. There are however overt examples where it might be more obvious eg. a gay couple. It would be difficult to believe they weren't practising homosexuals if they were a couple being together all the time. It would be exceptional if they were celibate in a relationship, temptation must be huge.

However, it does say in scripture that 1.) It's not for us to judge.
2.) Repent! and wash away your sins. So who knows, there may be 2nd chances but it would be a risk taken, we all have differering tolerances for risks, maybe they are the ones hedging their bets. Having your cake and eating it.

Those of us who are more thorough might want to go straight for the beeline, than make concessions about moral matters. In the end, God is the arbiter.

However, I sort of know what you mean. Your psychology is like, "well I'm trying hard to aim for Christian perfection and these people who aren't trying as hard are so smug."

Perhaps you should find the section in the bible that says something about not being complacent about salvation. It's in there somewhere.

I'd say also, there is something interesting about us Catholics, we do tend to be quite judgemental as a kind of incidental offshoot of trying to be perfect people with high standards. But, that's what we including me, must avoid ! Even though, we are susceptible.

It says somewhere in scripture that we will ultimately be judged by how we judge other people, so this is like a measure to ensure we are not being hypocrites.

Peace out.

ericboutin · #27 Mar 8, '13, 7:08 pm

I could be wrong but I don't think anyone is trying to judge anyone's souls, something that fortunately for us is God's job and His alone. Also if I'm not mistaken we are required to help each other out by judging each other's bad behavior, the two are quite different. Anyone who has kids know we do this several times a day! Lol.

123Strontium · #28 Mar 9, '13, 4:11 am

Perhaps to add, there are probably 2 types of judgement that man can make, constructive judgement and judgement made on behalf of personal pride. We must know our motivations. Self awareness and what not.

ericboutin · #29 Mar 9, '13, 6:58 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by 123Strontium

Perhaps to add, there are probably 2 types of judgement that man can make, constructive judgement and judgement made on behalf of personal pride. We must know our motivations. Self awareness and what not.

Amen to that! Lol. And ironically enough I think today's readings and Gospel sum this up perfectly!! Lol.

Thanks!

hazcompat · #30 Mar 9, '13, 7:23 am

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner. (100 times)

While we draw breath the door of repentence is open. Mercy is for this world, then comes judgement.

Peace

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	The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.